looking at libya and looking at syria, when should united nations or member states intervene? >> well, these are different situations. in libya, i think we've been right in intervening because gaddafi was a dictator, and you remember that there was a sort of libyan spring, and nobody was possible because of gaddafi. therefore, a decision was taken to intervene. >> rose: is the principle you don't intervene no matter how atroacials the acts of the government in power, if in fact they have a member of the security council who opposes? or if in fact they have an army which will make it a very bloody affair. >> no. >> rose: are those the rules? >> no. the rule is because of veto if one or two people-- nations -- permanent security members-- we cannot contribute because our principle is to intervene only if we have a legal authorization. and up to now, three times, russia and china say no. and, therefore, up to now, we haven't been able to intervene. which is a humanitarian catastrophe. because every day you have more than 200 people killed. and because the security council doesn't